Yeah, McCain probably went too far in his attempt to pander to the extreme right.

Are you okay with saying that our nation was founded as a nation under God and that our laws originally were influenced greatly by the bible?

If not then what foundation do you think that our nation and laws were built on?

Methinks thou dost protest way too much.

No, I'm not OK with that. I am OK with saying that some of our founding fathers were Christian and that that likely played a role in their thinking and decision making.

But to say that our Constitution was "influenced greatly" by the Bible is patently false. Like I said, our Constitution and country were founded on enlightenment ideals, relying heavily on the writings of Locke, Montesquieu, and Hobbes (among others). It also drew a lot from the Magna Carta and the English Bill of Rights. If the Bible is in there at all, it certainly ranks very low on the list of influences from which the drafters of the Constitution drew.

Thanks for the response Toby. Here is an alternate view that I gleaned online:

Dr. Donald S. Lutz, a professor of political philosophy at the University of Houston, conducted a study in which he examined some 15,000 documents written during America’s founding era. He and his research associate, Dr. Charles Hyneman, found that a third of the quotations in these documents were from the Bible. “Deuteronomy is cited more than John Locke or anyone else,” said Lutz.

According to Lutz, the U.S. Constitution is a political document that is the product of a constitution-making tradition that can be traced to colonial charters and which is modeled on the biblical covenant.

The colonists “didn’t come over with John Locke in hand,” said Lutz. “They came over with the Bible in hand.”

I am only vaguely familiar with Lutz's work, so I'll do a little searching before I respond fully, but a couple quick things jump out right away:

What types of documents are included in that 15,000? Surely, I could pick 15,000 other documents that include no mention of the Bible. Did these documents include church documents? Who wrote them? Did they include a significant sample of documents that ultimately lead to the Constitution? And in what context was the Bible quoted in these documents? Again, I am not very familiar with Lutz's work. Perhaps he has answers to these questions.

I will say, however, that books I have read (I've read a lot, as I was an American History major in college) on the topic have rejected the idea that the Bible (or Christianity, in general) played any significant role in the development of the Constitution.

Hello all,

Thanks for the post, Toby. The myth of America founded as a Christian nation is surprisingly widely believed. I am in agreement with you. In fact, I wrote an article a couple of years ago on the subject. You've reminded me to re-post it on my own site. If you're interested, you can find it here: http://www.sidfaiwu.com/blog/index.php/2008/06/the-christian-states-of-america/

Kansas Bob, seconding Toby's concerns for the set of documents chosen, I would also respond Lutz's "They came over with the Bible in hand," by pointing out that the pilgrims didn't write the founding documents: The Declaration of Independents, The Articles of Confederation, and The Constitution. The pilgrims didn't like the flavor of religious persecution they faced in Europe, so they came here in implemented their own brand of religious persecution.

Finally, I would ask why, if freedom and democracy so obviously flowed from Christianity, why hadn't we seen a Christian democracy emerge in the 1500+ years before America? The answer is simple: we hadn't had The Enlightenment yet.

The Enlightenment forced Christians to reinterpret their religion. They began ignoring verses that condone slavery and forbid charging interest on loans. More importantly, they started ignoring the authoritarian and, frankly, pro-monarchy sections of the Bible. To pre-Enlightenment thinkers, democracy was un-Biblical, if not down-right blasphemous.

Look forward to your follow-up on Lutz Toby.

Also, thank you and Sid for your perspectives.

I am not a history buff as you all seem to be but, since I didn't want to hog the comment stream here, I put together a few religious quotes from the founding fathers at my place.

Maybe you can find some quotes that speak of how the Enlightenment influenced these guys.

Cheers, Bob

Hog away Bob. Sid and Toby aren't shy, don't you be. ;-)

"I will say, however, that books I have read (I've read a lot, as I was an American History major in college) on the topic have rejected the idea that the Bible (or Christianity, in general) played any significant role in the development of the Constitution."

I'll say that I'm not surprised but that doesn't make what you read the truth and it doesn't mean that the writers of those books had any less of an agenda than Christians who proclaim that we are a Christian nation have.

My experience of studying history (and I was no major so grain of salt here) is that the further out we go from an event the more subjectivity is involved. Much like reading emails, any written word is dependent on context. While the founders weren't all Christians (and I don't think that can be disputed) how many were and of what stripe is less certain. We have a limited number of documents that give us clues in that area.

Did the Enlightenment influence our nation's founders? Of course, they were men of their times. I'd expect no less. Were they also influenced by Christianity and the writings in the Bible? You'd be hard pressed to say no and back that up.

America wasn't founded as a theocracy. I don't know anyone who claims that. America was founded by people who were raised and influenced in a Judeo-Christian society. That those values were in place can't be reasonably disputed.

Sid, Bob said colonists, not pilgrims. There are colonists that weren't pilgrims. And those colonists were probably Christian in the main.

Religious men certainly signed the Declaration, John Witherspoon for one, Francis Hopkinson for another.

There's no disputing that some pilgrims engaged in persecution. No man is perfect so I'm not sure I see your point. The Enlightenment didn't forec Christians to do anything. You seem to assume or imply that all Christians prior were pro-slavery and pro-monarchy. The Bible isn't pro-slavery or pro-monarchy. It does talk about those institutions, but given the times they were written in it doesn't make sense otherwise. Can you cite anyone that says this ? "To pre-Enlightenment thinkers, democracy was un-Biblical, if not down-right blasphemous."

Hello Kansas Bob,

Please, share your comments. I'm always up for a good debate (just ask Scott).

Speaking of Scott...

I have no doubt that almost all of the founders considered themselves Christian and were influenced by their Judea-Christian cultural heritage as were most of the colonists**. I would agree with the statement, "Our country was founded with a Judea-Christian _culture_," I only disagree with the idea that our form of government was founded on the same.

[quote]Can you cite anyone that says this ? "To pre-Enlightenment thinkers, democracy was un-Biblical, if not down-right blasphemous."[/quote]

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that this was common historical knowledge. After all, the kings and Popes did rule by "divine right" within a Christian framework. Supporting a democracy is a denial of the divine rights of kings and Popes.

Here's an example from the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II from http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=750.

"In the course of the ensuing anointing, a number of scriptures were read: Psalm 84:9-10; 1 Peter 2:13-17; Psalm 141:2; and Matthew 22:15-22. A connection was thus made between the monarchy and the living oracles of God (Acts 7:37-38)." Also see the works of Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet (Theologian who defended absolute monarchies 1627-1704), Edmond Burke (~1790 - anti-Enlightenment writer), and Thomas Aquinas' (1225-1264).

**Sorry for misreading 'colonists' as 'pilgrims' but my point was that the pilgrims were not interested in freedom for everyone, only freedom for themselves. There were far from democratic and thus could not be considered founders of our government. I'm surprised at the number of people who consider the 16th century pilgrims founders of our late 18th century government.

Scott, in response to, "... that doesn't make what you read the truth and it doesn't mean that the writers of those books had any less of an agenda than Christians who proclaim that we are a Christian nation have."

The fact that I have read more books that say that isn't what makes it objectively true. But, when historians independently cite different primary sources that lead to the conclusion that our nation was not founded as a Christian nation, we can safely say that it was not. Most objective historians come to the conclusion that we were founded as a secular nation. (Once again, I haven't had a chance to read Lutz, but will do so and let you know what I think, if you care!)

The Founding Fathers had a range of religious beliefs, ranging from fundamentalists to deists (some believe that Jefferson and possibly Franklin were atheists, but I don't buy that...) There is no question that religion influenced their decision making in some capacity, but when the chips fell and they drafted the Constitution, they left religion out on purpose -- despite their religious beliefs (or perhaps because their beliefs differed so much), they allowed for absolute religious freedom.

And, as Thomas Jefferson is my founding-father-of-choice, I can't pass up citing the "Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom," in which he says that "to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tyrannical." Jefferson would be very disappointed, to say the least, if he saw the influence that religion has on modern politics.

See I'd argue that the "Divine Right" of Kings/Popes isn't inherently Christian but rather the rulers twisting scripture to suit their purpose. Of course I probably would have been burned at the stake as a result.

As for persecution and pilgrims I think you can certainly make a case that it happened, but I am unaware that it was as universal as you seem to think. The Huguenots didn't engage in any persecution that I'm aware of.

This statment "There were far from democratic and thus could not be considered founders of our government." could also be said to apply to the Founders since at the beginning only white male land owners had the power to vote. So the Founding Fathers, products of the enlightenment and eschewers of the faith in favor of government weren't very enlightened themselves it seems.

Toby, like I said I'm not arguing that we were founded as a theocracy as that's what I hear when you say "Christian Nation". We were indeed founded as a very limited democracy, almost an oligarchy. So in that sense yes we were founded a secular form of government. My argument has only ever been that we were Christian in mores (and even then somewhat flawed).

"to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tyrannical."

The IRS does this all the time.

Hey Scott,

"See I'd argue that the "Divine Right" of Kings/Popes isn't inherently Christian but rather the rulers twisting scripture to suit their purpose."

_Of course_ you would. You entered Christianity under the new interpretation, which is exactly my point. Medieval theologians would argue that your understanding of the religion isn't inherently Christian but rather a twisting of scripture to match your beliefs about freedom, democracy, etc. Heck, as a Christian Democrat, you probably get a bit of that _now_. ;)

As for the pilgrims, you may very well be right. My knowledge of that area of history is quite weak.

"This statment "There were far from democratic and thus could not be considered founders of our government." could also be said to apply to the Founders since at the beginning only white male land owners had the power to vote."

The founders actually negotiated, debated, and wrote the founding documents. The pilgrims did not. That's what I was referring to.

"My argument has only ever been that we were Christian in mores..."

And our argument is that those mores didn't find their way into the founding documents of our country.

By the way, I'm still interested in some of your opinions on the problem of evil, especially the free will theodicy, http://www.sidfaiwu.com/blog/index.php/2008/06/the-problem-of-evil-the-free-will-theodicy/, since I believe it's one you accept.